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Podcast S20E02

Winter is coming: what’s the outlook for energy markets?

London suburb rooftops in snowy winter day, UK

In this episode, we explore what the winter outlook is likely to mean for European and GB energy markets. How are we positioned this winter compared to going into last winter? Are we likely to see big price spikes? How big is the risk to security of supply? And to what extent is demand-side response now part of the toolbox of solutions?

Jon Slowe and Sandra Trittin are joined by Gurps Rupari, Senior Consultant within our modelling team and Jon Ferris, Head of Flexibility & Storage.

Episode transcript

[00:00:04.490] - Jon Slowe

Welcome to Talking New Energy, a podcast from LCP Delta. I'm Jon Slowe.


[00:00:09.310] - Sandra Trittin

And I'm Sandra Trittin. And together we are exploring how the energy transition is unfolding across Europe through conversations with guests from the leading edge of the transition.


[00:00:19.090] - Jon Slowe

Hello and welcome to the episode. As you'll all know, we're coming up to winter fast. This time last year, as we were coming up to winter, there was a lot of fear about what winter would hold for the energy markets after the Russian invasion of Ukraine and all the impacts of that. So today I thought it would be really interesting to explore what this winter holds for us in terms of the energy markets. And unfortunately, we don't have Sandra with us today. She has lost her voice, so she's recovering from a cold. But we do have two guests from LCP Delta, experts in the upstream power markets and also in the flexibility markets to help us look forward to this winter and what's in store. So, let's say hello to our guests. First of all, Jon Ferris who leads LCP Delta's flexibility work. Hello, Jon.


[00:01:15.940] - Jon Ferris

Hello, Jon.


[00:01:17.510] - Jon Slowe

And secondly, Gurpal Ruprai, who leads a lot of our modelling on the power markets. Hello, Gurps.


[00:01:25.120] - Gurpal Ruprai

Hello, Jon.


[00:01:26.300] - Jon Slowe

Let's start by rewinding to November 2022, 12 months ago. There was a lot of worry about the winter ahead at that time, I think, would the lights stay on? What would the prices be? Would we run out of gas? Gurps? Can you just remind us how worried people were then and exactly what they were worried about?


[00:01:47.490] - Gurpal Ruprai

Yeah, I mean, I know a few of my neighbours and friends were asking me, do I need to buy a few candles just in case, for this winter? I don't think we ever really got to that point. The winter turned out to be a bit warmer and overall lower in demand than people were expecting. But, yeah, leading up to that winter, prices were getting extremely high. So, day ahead prices were getting we'd seen day ahead prices breaching around 1500 pounds per megawatt (MW) hour leading up to that winter. And to put that in context, in the years before 2022, generally, the day ahead price stayed in a comfortable range between, say, 50 and 150 pounds per megawatt hour. So, an order of magnitude difference in prices up to that winter.


[00:02:41.050] - Jon Slowe

So real worry about the lights going out, not just to me friends, but people in the energy system working in the energy sector.


[00:02:51.300] - Gurpal Ruprai

There was a lot of concern, not just in the UK, but obviously in Europe as well. So, the French nuclear fleet had suffered a series of long-term outages across that summer period. And leading up into the winter period, there was a lot of worry about whether those nuclear assets would actually return for that winter. And the summer had been very hot as well. And the stock levels of hydropower plants in Norway and Spain and France as well were at much lower levels going into that winter as well. So, there's a real combination of effects aside from gas prices.


[00:03:33.910] - Jon Slowe

So, we almost had, if we had had a cold winter, we would have had a perfect storm.


[00:03:38.990] - Gurpal Ruprai

Yeah, it really would have been a perfect storm and really all eyes would have been on gas stock levels and how those stock levels were declining through that winter period.


[00:03:50.990] - Jon Slowe

Jonn, what's your memories of twelve months ago and how worried people were, or the mood music at that time?


[00:03:58.570] - Jon Ferris

I spent over a decade trading pair and gas in the UK market on behalf of industrial commercial consumers. This time of year was always a worry, and particularly driven by the concern over gas stocks. So, winter demand, particularly in northern Europe, for gas is much higher than in the summer because a lot of people use it for heating their homes. It's also used for generating electricity, and historically has been that flexible generation that would turn up to meet spikes in demand. So, there's always a worry this time of year as to whether there would be enough gas in store to last the whole winter, or the opportunity cost of having to take gas out of store early and risk not having any at the end of winter, particularly February and March, where we frequently do see a cold spell. So those concerns were really exacerbated by having spent the summer trying to refill gas from relatively low stocks without the flow of Russian gas. So, prices were driven by the need to import LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas) from around the world to fill the stocks. And we'd reached this point of the winter with relatively high gas stocks, but still concern over whether we would have enough flows of gas to meet a cold winter.


[00:05:30.490] - Jon Ferris

And for all the announcements from Google this week that they've revolutionised long range weather forecasting using AI (Artificial Intelligence), it's still a concern and it's still something that traders are unwilling to take risks forecasting that far out of running out of gas. So, the price tends to stay high in order to keep gas stocks for that end of winter.


[00:05:58.950] - Jon Slowe

So, we were in a dicey situation this time last year. Luckily, or luckily, the gas stocks in Europe I think were quite high. I think there was a great job done in filling the gas storage facilities, despite the problems with supply from Russia. And probably the most important thing, we didn't have a cold winter last winter, so those gas stocks stayed high, but prices know, did they stay at those sorts of levels, that sort of order of magnitude higher, or did they calm down during the winter just to remind our listeners?


[00:06:37.290] - Gurpal Ruprai

Yeah, well, going into that winter the prices were mainly driven by the buying behaviour of gas leading up to that winter period to meet a mandated stock level. So, the European Union took a decision to make sure stock levels reached at least 90% coming into that winter period when those stock levels were reached and that buying paused and the warm winter started to materialise in November, actually, we started to see prices coming off. Actually, the high-power prices we saw for that winter, they weren't driven by fundamentals, they weren't driven by the fundamental price of gas being very high, they were driven by what we term scarcity, or we might term risk being built into the electricity price, taking electricity prices far, far higher than gas prices actually suggested. And that correction, the removal of that risk, as we started to see that warm Winter appear and cause the fall in electricity prices to closer to still high levels, but much closer to what fundamentals, what the cost of generating electricity from natural gas implied.


[00:08:02.690] - Jon Ferris

And the other side of that coin is the demand side, where we also saw measures and targets set by the EU across Europe to reduce, particularly gas consumption, but also peak electricity demand. So, the combination of seeing underlying demand fall through those measures, the warm winter, keeping demand low, and I think last winter was the lowest peak demand in the UK for at least decades. That's after a downward trend of nearly 20 years of declining peak demand. So, the demand needed to be met was very low. And a number of countries, particularly the UK market, introduced peak shaving products that could call on demand side response (DSR) in case all the other measures to bring generation on to meet demand couldn't keep the lights on.


[00:09:10.900] - Gurpal Ruprai

And interestingly, in Europe, a lot of those demand reductions for gas and for electricity, they were voluntary. Governments were asking people to save gas, save electricity, asking businesses to save gas and save electricity. We didn't see the same sort of marketing and publicity given to that in the UK. The DFS (Demand Flexibility Service) surface, that peak lopping surface that Jon mentioned was introduced and that did incentivise some demand reduction. Actually, probably a lot of that electricity demand reduction that we saw was more due to the cost-of-living crisis which people were going through, people trying to reduce their high gas and high electricity bills. Obviously, the Ofgem price cap was incredibly high.


[00:10:05.010] - Jon Ferris

Yes. So we did see a lot of price intervention across Europe. But despite that, as you mentioned, the retail price cap in the UK did see prices double where they had been a year or two beforehand. So, it's still capped, but still at a very high cost.


[00:10:24.220] - Jon Slowe

So last winter then, we had the potential for a perfect storm. The Europe got its act together really well with gas storage. We were lucky we didn't have a cold winter. A reasonable job was done in reducing demand and in peak demand management. But even with that, consumers across Europe were subject to huge price increases, or there were price caps and government stepped in with billions of euros and pounds. So, we got through last winter without the potential security supply implications, without where prices could have got to. Let's look forward to this winter now. So, Gurps, how are things looking going into the winter ahead? Same situation, different situation. Better, worse?


[00:11:13.470] - Gurpal Ruprai

Yes, I mean, the situation has changed in a lot of ways. We're still not expecting much of any flows of gas from Russia into Europe. And at the same time, though, the long-range weather forecasts for the upcoming winter are suggesting it is going to be at least a warm, wet start to this winter period, maybe slightly cooler in the first quarter of next year. And that first quarter always tends to be the period of highest demand. So, January, start of February is typically the highest period of electricity and gas demand in the UK. That being said, so what are we expecting for this upcoming winter? Well, looking at our forecast for the upcoming winter, we are expecting it to be more comfortable. We're not expecting any serious threats to security of supply. A lot of those threats were mainly in the form of a lack of imports, of a lack of ability to import electricity from Europe due to the tighter supplies in France, because the lack of that nuclear capacity being on outage, which a lot of that capacity has now come back.


[00:12:40.260] - Jon Slowe

So, the nuclear capacity is looking firmer now. There are less worries about that fleet.


[00:12:45.260] - Gurpal Ruprai

It is looking firmer, yeah. I think there's another four reactors that's expected to come back for this winter period out of, I think, around.


[00:12:52.820] - Jon Slowe

What about the hydro, Gurps? That was in not a great situation this time last year. Is that in a better situation now that Nordic hydro?


[00:13:01.210] - Gurpal Ruprai

Well, our hydro should certainly be better given the summer we had. But yeah, that Nordic hydro is expected to have higher stock levels for this winter. Although it is interesting looking at Norway, there was another Interconnector project between Norway and the UK actually connecting into Scotland, and that Interconnector hasn't received consent to go ahead, hasn't received consent from the Norwegian government to go ahead. And that's though, they're looking to essentially protect domestic security of supply and domestic power prices, to keep power prices low, which is interesting. We'd always viewed Norway as being the battery of Europe and connecting it to Scotland with all the offshore wind, to...


[00:13:51.930] - Jon Slowe

Denmark for all their wind.


[00:13:56.730] - Gurpal Ruprai

But, yeah, slightly more protectionist measures being taken, potentially,


[00:14:03.390] - Jon Ferris

I think it was more the case that the UK, France, Germany, Denmark, saw Norway as a battery.


[00:14:14.690] - Jon Slowe

Okay, so looking more comfortable, good gas stocks, the generation fleet in France is looking all right, hydro is okay. Winter maybe colder in the first quarter of next year, but not super cold.


[00:14:29.630] - Gurpal Ruprai

Yeah, I mean, what I would say is the weather has been incredibly variable this year and you could still see a cold winter coming in and we should probably draw some lessons from previous cold winters that we've seen in the past. The one to focus upon is what were one in 2018 when we saw the Beast from the East. That was an incredible extended period of snowfall in the UK towards, I think it was the mid- or end- of February. Jon.


[00:15:02.380] - Jon Ferris

Yes. End of February. Beginning of March.


[00:15:05.380] - Gurpal Ruprai



[00:15:06.110] - Jon Ferris

And it's particularly at that point where the gas stocks have been run down. Everyone saw an end to the winter and then with low gas, an extended cold snap can really have quite an impact on both prices and demand. Yeah.


[00:15:21.670] - Gurpal Ruprai

And in the UK, that's when the gas stocks were running out and we were looking at disconnecting power stations from using gas to generate and we saw some incredibly high gas prices. That was the first real peak in gas prices we'd seen.


[00:15:41.380] - Jon Ferris

And that's been one of the drivers for the emergence of the future system operator in the GB market, where the electricity system operator was calling on gas generators to burn more gas to keep the power on, and the gas system operator was desperately trying to reduce gas demand at the same time.


[00:16:04.540] - Jon Slowe

A joint up energy policy Jon that sounds like very revolutionary thought. Let's just touch on prices Gurps. I think it's a really good point where things may be looking okay now, but don't relax too much because it's difficult to know what winter can hold and what the weather will bring, where a price is at. You mentioned typically going into the winter, it might be between this is in pounds, but not that much difference in euros, 50 pounds to 150 pounds a megawatt hour. Last year it was an order of magnitude above that, up to 1500 pounds a megawatt hour. Are we back to normal with prices or are we still at elevated levels?


[00:16:48.770] - Gurpal Ruprai

We're still at elevated levels. We're certainly not back at normal price levels for what you would term a normal or boring winter. I think what we've seen is a return to fundamental. Return to a period in which the electricity prices are being set by fundamentals rather than fear those electricity prices are being set by higher-than-normal gas prices. That being said, gas prices have come down quite a bit. So, for coming renter around about 115 pence per therm. And when during that period, we're getting up to highs of four or 500 pence per therm in the day ahead market, so they are lower. But remember that that 100 pence per therm is still probably double more normal levels that we've seen in the past. But that scarcity risk, the additional rent being placed that we saw coming through in electricity prices, that has largely disappeared.


[00:18:00.880] - Jon Slowe

That's not there at the moment.


[00:18:02.040] - Jon Ferris

I think it's worth considering also the disconnect between the forward prices for the winter and what we see on a day-to-day basis, that forward prices are typically set for the season or the month ahead. Assuming that gas is going to be the marginal fuel, the last unit that's needed to meet demand. And obviously that is being driven by the current high gas price. However, on a day-to-day basis, we do see much more volatility. So, on days with high renewables, even in a winter like last year when we have a very windy day, you can still see very low prices or periods of very low prices within the day and much more volatility on that day, day-by-day or within day basis.


[00:18:55.770] - Jon Slowe

Which gives opportunities, Jon, to people that can smooth out that volatility, I guess.


[00:19:02.430] - Jon Ferris

it does. We're certainly seeing that reflected a bit more in dynamic prices this year. Last year, the challenge was that volatility was at a very high price, so tariffs like the Octopus Agile tariff prices were above the cap, so there wasn't as much volatility in that signal being given to consumers. Which is where the Demand Flexibility Service came in to meet the needs of the system operator on the very tight demand days when there was challenges in meeting demand or expectations of challenges. What we saw last year were a number of test events. So, the market was guaranteed for a number of events where people could respond to a signal that came through their retailer or an aggregator, and they would be paid a share of 3000 pounds per megawatt hour or three pounds per kilowatt (KW) hour. So quite an incentive to consumers to respond. In reality, we didn't actually need many live events last year, and the ones that were called on a day ahead basis were actually resolved within day. So, it was a service that wasn't called on in anger, but provided comfort to the ESO and to the markets that it would be there in times of need.


[00:20:45.740] - Jon Slowe

It's another tool in the toolbox. And I think what's interesting for me is in these sorts of discussions we're having about security, supplier prices, we're often naturally focusing on the supply side, on sources of generation, French nuclear fleet, et cetera. But earlier, Gurps, you were talking about demand being and Jon, you were both talking about demand being lower, about voluntary demand reduction measures, about actual demand response programmes. Jon, you've just outlined this programme in the UK or GB where residential customers could be paid to reduce their demand at particular times, which I think worked very well. So, it feels to me a tipping point is probably too strong, but we're now starting to see a bigger balance between both the supply side and the demand side in terms of managing winter crisis or peaks in demand. So just interested in both of your thoughts. Is tipping point too strong? How much more potential is there for the demand side to play a role? Are we just at the beginning of even a new way of looking at this, with the demand side having a far bigger role than we're used to it having in the past.


[00:22:02.810] - Jon Slowe

Jon, do you want to go first and then maybe Gurps.


[00:22:06.880] - Jon Ferris

So, it's probably a couple of points to highlight. Firstly, we've seen a reduction in the triad response, so industrial demand response...


[00:22:16.830] - Jon Slowe

And for triad, for non-GB listeners or people that don't know triads.


[00:22:21.680] - Jon Ferris

So industrial consumers of electricity in the GB market are charged for their use of the transmission system based on the three periods of highest demand through the winter. So, if you can predict when those periods are and reduce your consumption, then your share of the transmission costs is much reduced.


[00:22:45.920] - Jon Slowe



[00:22:46.700] - Jon Ferris

There's uncertainty around when those periods are. So, the system operator typically sees about 20 to 30 events where the demand reduction appears in case it's a triad.


[00:23:05.250] - Jon Slowe

Where people are guessing it might be a triad. So, we'll reduce demand just in case it is a triad.


[00:23:09.490] - Jon Ferris

Yes. And they only pay for three of them. But that's a method that it's been being phased out for at least the last five years and keeps being extended, but the participation in that has dropped and I think I saw a peak of over three gigawatts (GW) of demand reduction and the ESO are expecting less than 1.


[00:23:36.650] - Jon Slowe

So, it shows that you can get big chunks of demand reduction on the back of a fairly small price signal actually.


[00:23:44.220] - Jon Ferris

You can. What we're seeing from the Demand Flexibility Service is residential demand flexibility. Last winter it was an order of magnitude lower, so we saw around 300 MW being delivered. We also saw more participants through the winter as more companies joined the scheme and there was more awareness of it, but also a little bit of fatigue from early participants becoming less and less active through the winter. And that's even at the very high price that was being offered.


[00:24:29.230] - Jon Slowe

I would say that's for the first time that's done. Jon, that level of response feels to me like a roaring success because there's a huge amount of learning there and as we have more electrification, there'll be more and more opportunity for residential customers to participate and have an impact.


[00:24:48.930] - Jon Ferris

It certainly was a huge step change and I'm sure we all saw the pictures of social media perhaps of Gurps' neighbours with their candles, of people turning everything off in their homes and having dinner by candlelight. That sort of response isn't sustainable. But we are seeing more companies providing automated response, particularly around EV charging. And that's probably a view of the future of the service. It can't really rely too much on behavioural change and manual intervention. People will probably be more considerate of not running their dishwasher or washing machines on days when an event has been called. However, the sustainable impact is going to be where it's automated and we are seeing more and more companies looking to harness the large consuming appliances, particularly EVs and heat pumps, to get the value from the Demand Flexibility Service.


[00:26:00.840] - Jon Slowe

Thanks. Jon, what's your views on whether we are at that sort of tipping point in how the demand side is viewed moving forward.


[00:26:07.920] - Gurpal Ruprai

I think it's interesting sort of bringing it back to security of supply that the mechanism that the UK has always had in place for ensuring security of supply for the upcoming winter is the capacity market. And that capacity market was introduced off of the back of coal stations closing because the carbon price support, the carbon tax that they were facing, was causing them to close. So that's why the capacity market was introduced to essentially insurance policy to keep generators online just in case. And prices through that capacity market have been fairly low up until the last auction where inflation requirement for new build and so on and so forth drove prices to be higher. But obviously demand flexibility, demand side response can play in capacity market auctions. However, to do so, there's a lot of red tape, a lot of proving and testing requirements to go through. Whereas the DFS service, which Jon was talking about, is much simpler. There’re guaranteed payments at a guaranteed price, whereas you don't know what the capacity market auction price is going to be.


[00:27:39.140] - Jon Slowe

Yeah. And if you don't know the prices, that's fine, if you've got a trading team working out what to do. But for a residential customer it has to be super simple and super clear.


[00:27:47.200] - Gurpal Ruprai

Yeah. So, I was kind of be keen to get your thoughts, Jon, as well. How do you see the interaction between sort of the balance between the DFS service and the capacity market on the demand side? To my mind, it just appears that DFS is a much simpler service with a good level of return for a residential customer. And it's easily understandable, you know what to do when it comes to between 05:00 and 07:00 you turn off a few lights and unplug your laptop and run it off charge for a couple of hours.


[00:28:27.960] - Jon Ferris

I think from a residential perspective that's right. The challenge has always been the cost of aggregating lots and lots and lots of small assets and meeting the requirements of the capacity markets or ancillary services and meeting the pre-qualification and testing, whereas the Demand Flexibility Service is all done, measured through the smart metre, so you don't need any more equipment. It can be implemented manually; it can be automated and so far, that the price has been both guaranteed and high. I think if the scheme does continue and it grows, then the price that was set so that it would encourage demand response when prices were very high last year, last winter, might have to reflect more where prices are today and the value of the response. So, we probably will see a little bit more price discovery come into the service. Obviously, the price that's being paid is a cap, so providers are able to bid to ensure that their assets, their customers, are included. So, we may see that separation between the residential consumers being guaranteed a payment from their retailer or from their aggregator. And it's that the company that is contracting with the ESO to provide demand flexibility is the one that takes the risk on the market price and ensures that their customers get rewarded for delivering the service.


[00:30:17.510] - Jon Slowe

It does feel for me that the demand side is starting to play a more significant role. We're at a learning point with residential in particular, but when you were talking about the industrial and commercial customers, Jon, three gigawatts peak demand in the UK, Gurps, roughly, where is that at the moment?


[00:30:33.100] - Gurpal Ruprai

50 gigawatts.


[00:30:34.210] - Jon Slowe

50 gigawatts. So, we're getting 6%. We've shown we can get 6% peak reduction from industrial and commercial customers, potentially more with bigger price signals and then layer on the residential ones on top. And I think if policymakers design markets and systems, not first for generator, big generators, and then think, oh, how do we make this work for demand response as well but design it specifically to capture that response from the demand side. And innovators in the market, retailers, aggregators develop great propositions then, as you say, Jon, a lot of this now doesn't require extra hardware or controls, it's a software business, so that becomes really cheap as those scales. Then in the next years, my view is we'll just see more and more demand side flexibility unlocked to help us get through difficult winters, difficult days.


[00:31:30.610] - Jon Ferris

I think that's key for me. As you mentioned, Jon, it's not seeing the demand side as the last resort.


[00:31:36.680] - Jon Slowe

Yeah, it should be the first resort.


[00:31:39.550] - Jon Ferris

It should be given the opportunity to participate earlier if the price is right. And that's where we really get into customer segmentation. On the demand side, we've got some early adopters, we've got people that are capable and willing to respond, and we've got a lot of other demands that I don't think it should be either the first resort or the last resort, but to have different propositions being offered to different parts of the customer base.


[00:32:11.200] - Jon Slowe

Well, we could talk a lot more about demand cycle flexibility, but we'll leave that there for now and bring out the talking. New energy crystal ball. And I'm going to set the dial this week to three years’ time, 2026. And I've got a really challenging question for both of you. In 2026, what will we be saying about prices and security supply over the last few years? So, I want you to try and answer this in a sentence or two. Will we have had blackouts; will everything be fine? Will we stay with the elevator prices? Will we have low prices? Will we have the winter of 22/23 prices? Gurps, do you want to go first and sum it up in however you want your view and then, Jon?


[00:32:57.760] - Gurpal Ruprai

Yeah, I think we'll be starting to see demand to uptick slightly. I think there's going to be a few years where demand isn't going to change that much and the winters will be at roughly the same levels as they're at now, maybe slightly lower. But crucially, the thing is, we're not seeing much more capacity come off the system now, apart from the last coal station will close in the next year or two, and then after that the next set of stations to close. Are there's a few more nuclear stations closing after 2026? Crucially, after 2026. So, demand is not going to change capacity. If anything, is it going to change slightly, increase with more storage capacity, more renewable capacity coming on the system, gas prices might come down slightly. It's going to be a boring few years, Jon.


[00:34:00.270] - Jon Slowe

So, your neighbours can put their candles away for a bit?


[00:34:02.900] - Gurpal Ruprai

Well, they can save them for their birthday cakes.


[00:34:08.510] - Jon Slowe

Jon, how about you?


[00:34:09.630] - Jon Ferris

So first, just to caveat, Gurps, you're talking primarily about electricity demand.


[00:34:16.760] - Jon Slowe

From a GB point of view, I guess, as well.


[00:34:17.890] - Jon Ferris

And I think we are reaching a tipping point where we've seen underlying demand drop for 20 years, but with the electrification of heating and transport, we will see more growing demand in the electricity sector. We've also seen the electricity market design proposals from the EU talk about introducing a peak shaving product and encouraging system operators, particularly transmission system operators, to do that. I think we'll increasingly see the model of the demand flexibility service from The GB being replicated in a lot of countries around Europe and that demand side flexibility and the growth of big batteries that we're seeing a huge pipeline across Europe. Now, the GB has been one of the leading countries installing batteries, but in almost every country in Europe we're seeing big batteries being installed. So that combination will provide a significant amount of capacity that can reduce demand and mitigate those peaks. So, I think that supports the idea that it's going to be a boring few years, largely because of that capacity of batteries and demand side flexibility that can come online and really provide a service to the grid when it's needed.


[00:35:48.620] - Jon Slowe

Okay, well, I guess we never know the weather, so that's going to always throw a spanner into the works and unexpected global events potentially as well. But those aside, that's a really nice summing up of your views for the next few years. So, thanks very much, Gurps. Thanks, Jon. It's been great to sort of cast our eye back at the beginning to last winter and then look ahead at this winter and explore the growing role of demand site flexibility. To everyone listening, we hope you enjoyed this episode. And as Gurps says, you can save your candles for your birthday cake. You don't need to keep it in the cupboard, maybe you do. Let's see and look forward to welcoming you back next week. Thanks, and goodbye.


[00:36:35.190] - Sandra Trittin

Thanks for tuning in. We are excited to bring you captivating conversations from the leading edge of Europe's energy transition. If you've got suggestions. For topics or guests. For future episodes, please let us know.


[00:36:46.930] - Jon Slowe

And if you're enjoying the podcast, then please do rate it and share it with colleagues. For show notes, transcripts and more, please visit


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