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Podcast S19E02

The Dawn of a Customer Centric Revolution?

Wind energy

In this episode, Jon Slowe and Sandra Trittin are joined by LCP Delta experts Jennifer Arran and Nigel Timperley as they explore how the energy retail sector is ready to be transformed – from a traditional, volume-based commodity sales business model to one which has an unwavering commitment to customer empowerment; uses advanced risk management tools to reassure and protect customers; and provides transformational energy services.

Episode transcript

[00:00:04.570] – Jon Slowe

Welcome to Talking New Energy, a podcast from LCP Delta. I'm Jon Slowe.


[00:00:09.370] – Sandra Trittin

And I'm Sandra Trittin. And together we are exploring how the energy transition is unfolding across Europe through conversations with guests from the leading edge of the transition.


[00:00:21.730] – Jon Slowe

Hello and welcome to the episode. I'm joined for the first time by my new co-host, Sandra Trittin. Hello, Sandra.


[00:00:29.860] – Sandra Trittin

Hello to everyone. Great to be with you today.


[00:00:33.210] – Jon Slowe

So, Sandra and I will be co-hosting the podcast from now on. Today's podcast, we're looking at the future of energy retail or energy suppliers. We talk a lot; I've talked a lot on this podcast about customer centricity energy services and really transforming the way that the energy sector interacts with customers so regular listeners will know. I'm very passionate about this topic. Sandra, your background with tiko, you've been taking technology services to energy suppliers across Europe. How do you see this mean? I think we share a lot of the same passion and drive around where we think energy retail needs to go. Do you see it going in that way? From your experience at tiko, were you walking through open doors at energy retailers? Were you trying to push water uphill?


[00:01:37.630] – Sandra Trittin

Yeah. So that's pretty interesting. So, first of all, I think it's one of the most important changes that the energy industry is going through, because it will also shape the energy future of all the customers, so of all of us, significantly for the future. But unfortunately, out of my own experience, it's going much slower than we would like it to have and also much slower than it could be. And if you look at the markets today, the main push normally is coming from new market entrants. It's barely the existing players who are riding the wave, it's mainly the new ones. And what is interesting, the new market players have also seen or realised this as a new business opportunity, right. And they have understood the potential and the growth opportunity for themselves, but also for the general sector. And this is also reflected by the big new players, which we are seeing today. So, I think it's moving, it's moving slower than expected, but it got a push over the last, let's say three to four years. Also, with the Covid situation and with the situation, Ukraine, et cetera, it got quite a push to move now faster.


[00:03:04.450] – Jon Slowe

Okay. So maybe now it's quite a good time to step back and look at where energy retail is at and where we think it will go. So, to do that, we're joined by two LCP Delta colleagues and experts, Jennifer Arran, and Nigel Timperley. Hi, Jennifer.


[00:03:27.400] – Jennifer Arran

Hi, guys.


[00:03:28.480] – Jon Slowe

And. Hi, Nigel.


[00:03:29.830] – Nigel Timperley

Hi, Ron. Nice to see you.


[00:03:32.550] - Jon Slowe

Now, we're going to be talking about a paper that the two of you have put together, The Dawn of a Customer-Centric Transition. So, it's not wholly focused on energy retail, but it's very much about the energy industry's interaction with customers. So, let's start just by what you mean about a customer centric transition. One of you unpack that a little bit for our listeners.


[00:04:07.320] - Nigel Timperley

Shall I dive in? Nigel essentially, the energy retail model is outdated. It's set up in an adversarial, a confrontational way, in fact. And perhaps it's no surprise that energy companies have very poor brands with their customers. An energy company works rather like a betting company. You take on the energy company, you benefit if the energy company loses because you lower your consumption, and the energy company wins if you lose because you use too much energy. This is exactly the wrong model for the modern world. That used to be fine, but now we have a world where we're trying to cut consumption. We're trying to help people to overcome their consumption worries, to move together to a green future, to hold hands and collaborate in a way that reduces the terrible experience that customers have just been through of volatility and crisis. We need a new model if we're going to deliver the transition. And that's the thesis. The model argues we need to turn the whole thing the paper argues we need to turn the whole model on its head and begin with the customer not fighting the customer, but collaborating with the customer, empowering the customer. That's the thesis.



[00:05:41.200] - Jon Slowe

Nigel, you could interpret those two ways. You could interpret it a market design question for governments, regulators, policymakers, or you could interpret it as an opportunity or challenge for energy retailers or those working with customers to reframe the way they work with their customers.


[00:06:04.150] - Nigel Timperley

Yes, I agree. And policy clearly has a role to play. Ultimately. It begins, though, with customers, not with policymakers. And customers are actually driving policymakers. The recent energy crisis has left a scar on customers. Customers are hurting. Customers are crying out for something different. They don't trust their energy suppliers. As I mentioned already, we've got clear data that shows that the energy brands are the bottom of the pile. When you look at major service providers, certainly into the home, that is a signal, that is an opportunity for the market to respond with disruptive offers that give the customer what they want. There is no real need for policy as such. If the customer is crying out for something, that's a business opportunity in a free market, and there are disruptors who are responding to it.


[00:07:00.140] - Jon Slowe

So, break down this customer-centric transition a bit. You've framed it in terms of not adversarial but partnership, working together. What are the different elements of that for an energy retailer? For example,


[00:07:17.940] - Jennifer Arran

We had some interesting conversations when we were writing this paper. Clearly, we had a lot of debates. About this, but for me it's about a complete change in the way that we offer the products and the services to the customer. So, we've talked about customer solutions for years in energy, but they haven't actually been customer solutions. They've been very much pushing what the energy retailer, the energy company, wants to push onto customers because it's what they need, not what the customers need. So, what we're talking about now is transforming the relationship so they're actually customer-centric. So, the customer is in the middle of that conversation with their energy supplier. There's an opportunity right now with technology to start to bring costs down. There's an opportunity with flexibility to bring the value up. This changes the kind of conversations you need to have with customers because they need to be active in the market and there's almost been too much debate about what this means and how to break this down. But we kind of settled on four key components. First, as Nigel has already mentioned, we're going to see a complete change in the energy retailer relationship with the customer. There's going to need to be a move towards engaging, empowering, and ultimately collaborating with customers, which is quite different to what we've seen to this point. Secondly, the data that we gather from customers and the kind of rapid emergence of AI as a key tool to deliver this data back to customers, personalising the customer experience and helping retailers to gauge in a positive and proactive way will be absolutely critical to the whole solution. Third, we see a transformation of the way solutions are delivered to customers. So, we're moving beyond box shifting towards energy solutions with finance included, which address the upfront cost barrier, but we're also going to see intelligent digital assets in the home, which enables both customers and suppliers to benefit in this new relationship. Lastly, we talk a lot in the paper about risk management and the role of tariffs and energy services in enabling customers to choose the right level of risk that they're willing to take, rather than just being driven by the cheapest rate possible. We'll instead see customers engaging with smart tariffs or flexible tariffs where they're empowered to make active decisions about their own consumption, which completely transforms the way that they will engage with their retailer. Overall, what we're talking about here is a complete shift that we haven't seen yet from energy retailers so far. A lot of the solutions have been pushed at customers, but they work for the retailer. But we're talking about flipping that on its head and actually centering everything around the customer. And why now? I guess in terms of at this stage we've come this far, what's going to be the biggest, biggest change? I think there's something around bringing the cost of technology down. There's an opportunity to do that right now in the market, but also there's the opportunity around flexibility to increase the value of technology to the customer. But to do this, the customer has to be engaged. I mean, there's lots more we can say about all three of these, all four of these items. But on the topic of risk management and the use of tariffs, is particularly important. So, Nigel, I don't know if you want to come in and say a Bit more about that, from your perspective.


[00:10:12.440] - Nigel Timperley

Yes, essentially, risk management is going to be fundamental to the way the market looks. Traditionally, suppliers have borne all the risk, but in a volatile, intermittent world of renewable energy generation, there'll be a more complex relationship between supplier and customer with risk sharing contracts between the two and solutions for customers that enable them to manage their risk. We've already seen the evolution of very sophisticated tariffs across Europe that will continue and form the platform. So, in the old days, you just bought the cheapest price. In the future, you set a price for a certain degree of risk, risk around price or volume that you might be prepared to live with, and that's what the new model looks like. So it's more of it has to be collaborative. If I'm going to effectively agree a risk price contract with you and agree how I'm going to live with that risk, how I'm going to manage it, maybe I'll have solar in storage, for instance, to manage my risk. So that becomes a much more of a handshake and less of a confrontation.


[00:11:19.680] - Jon Slowe
Sandra, what do you make of this move from adversarial to collaborative?


[00:11:26.390] - Sandra Trittin
Yes, I was just thinking, because if I listen to what has been said now, you have the part of the customer empowerment of the risk management, which gives value also to the utility or to the new player in the market, as well as to the client, you have the opportunity for offering new type of energy services. How would you see it, Nigel, in a way that is there any area where to start off, or are they all equally the what? What would you recommend? Right, if one of the players would like to step into that new world and new customer-centric era, where to start off?


[00:12:14.880] - Nigel Timperley

Yes, well, we are seeing people start off already. As you would expect me to say, it starts with the customer. So essentially, the idea is to create virtuous business models rather than vicious ones. So, a virtuous model is helping the customer achieve their goals without the provider of that solution actually suffering if those goals are achieved. So, a good example would be something like Tiba, where Tiba has a pass-through contract. Now, this isn't the full end game by any means, but it's the principal sound, which is Tibber does not benefit if I, as the customer, use more energy, they just make a small profit on the pass through of the wholesale price to me in my retail price. So, what's Tibber's business? Tibber's business is then selling me energy efficiency solutions so that I can use less. Note that they don't lose out if I apply those solutions. On the contrary, they gain because I'm buying their solutions to them. They're not benefiting from commodity supply; they're just passing it through to me. So, we're on the same side. They've come round my side of the table, these swap teams that's my friend helping me to cut costs.

Now, there are a lot more sophisticated models than Tibber available, but the basic principle of pass-through tariff with energy efficiency solutions around it is essentially collaborative. And so, what we'll start to see is the development of these simple models that will become a lot more sophisticated as more sophisticated solutions are provided to me.


[00:13:55.550] - Sandra Trittin

I would just have one follow up question on that because Nigel, you were saying that often it's based also on some kind of sales, right? Like hardware sales, sales of energy efficiency applications or tools, et cetera.


[00:14:09.610] - Nigel Timperley

Can be, yeah, probably.


[00:14:10.920] - Sandra Trittin

Jennifer, how would you see the financing of all of these solutions? Right, because normally these players would like to address the full market, like all clients, all customer segments, and not everyone is able to afford that.


[00:14:25.750] - Jennifer Arran

Yeah, I mean the finance is well, it's obviously absolutely critical for some of the more expensive technologies, but I think the point is that it can start a lot smaller. So, it can start with something relatively low cost for that customer. You start to build up that relationship and then there is an opportunity to upsell after that with perhaps financing included to help cover the costs. But you have to build up that trust first I think is thesis here. So, you might start by selling a control to your customer and then doing some personalised insights around their usage and helping them save a few pounds a year on their energy bill. But then you become an advisor to that customer, they start to build that relationship. It's a bit like Nigel said, you come around the other side of the table, they're with you, they're trying to help you and then actually do you know, oh, we noticed you've got an EV we notice there's some usage at this time of the day. Have you thought about this solution, or would you be interested in joining this type of tariff? You can start to open the conversation there from quite a small base, but obviously as you get towards things like heat pumps, bigger technologies that involve much more upheaval, the financing is absolutely critical. So green finance is going to be a major factor here, I think, in the future.


[00:15:34.730] - Jon Slowe

Sandra, how much have you seen this in your work at tiko over the last years? This mindset, I guess, that Jennifer and Nigel are describing?


[00:15:46.310] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah, I mean in my past work and also in my current work, I see pieces of it, I see different players taking parts of it. So, for example, there are some solutions out there which are applying financing, so instead of selling hardware, they do like rentals or leasing opportunities. There's also a lot in service and product design which is customer centric. The challenge, I think, is mainly to put the pieces together. And this relates to my former question. It always starts from my personal view, with the empowerment of the customer. So, it means that you need to get the data and just have a look in how many countries in Europe you are able to get the smart metre data really on your platform. Right. To reuse it and to give insights to the client. It's a nightmare. I mean, there are exceptions, but with the broader accessibility, there is still some work to do. I think we will get there, just takes a bit more time and then we have the basis for all the additional services.


[00:16:55.270] - Jon Slowe

Yeah. And that data, it could also come from a thermostat from a heating appliance.


[00:17:01.370] - Sandra Trittin

Yes, sure. So, I think you are mentioning their critical point. So even though the data might come from smart metres, it could come from smart thermostats, it could also come from the asset itself, which would require the manufacturer of that asset to be open for the accessibility of that data or to be able to give that accessibility. And I think some of the players have realised that also as a new business model to charge for that data, which then gives like some additional hurdles right, in the development of new products and services.






[00:17:37.780] - Nigel Timperley

But it's manageable essentially so much there, all the bits are there. Well, the point I would stress your dead right, Sandra. You can see this evolving as a series of separate streams. There's lots of little silos of technology and finance as well. And AI. All these things are growing. And you put your finger on it when you said the biggest challenge is systems integration, pulling all these things through into joined up propositions. And as an industry, systems integration isn't something that the retail energy industry is famous for. I think that's fair to say, with a degree of understatement, pulling the things together is really hard and that's where the role for disruptors is. But that's a customer centric orientation. I shouldn't need three different apps, one for my EV, one for my smart thermostat, one for my smart meter. Perhaps it's got my bill in it. They should all join up. I just want this thing to tell me how I'm doing with my energy. I don't care that these things were made by separate people. We see integration and partnership as being key, that we will see these tie ups and if they don't happen, then there is a huge opportunity for disruptors and the disruptors might be people you don't expect. So, it's not obvious to us that energy suppliers per se will win, but whoever wins will be an energy manager who has pulled these different things together.


[00:19:04.560] - Jon Slowe

Taking what you said, Nigel, what you and Sandra just said, you're almost implying it could be too hard incumbents with all these current systems, because you're trying to make that systems integration bit, then becomes like trying to wade through treacle. So actually, is that why we're seeing the likes of Tibber, Octopus, Enpal in Germany, companies like this are the ones that started to get traction by definition, because they can build their systems for this customer-centric future?


[00:19:44.650] - Nigel Timperley

Well, yes, I think so, yes. I think it is an opportunity for lots of different people, actually manufacturers, even banks. The Green Finance model is a huge opportunity for them. We see Rabobank collaborating with Net2Grid and installers to put together energy efficiency solutions in the Netherlands. But you are starting to see these collaborations happen. I agree. The companies you've mentioned are obviously the ones who are in the lead. And coming back to Sandra's point about all the different components being there, that's exactly what we're seeing. So, you see Octopus collaborating with Lloyds Bank on Green Finance, they've acquired a heat pump company. They'll sell you a heat pump, they'll sell you an Octopus Cosy, which is a heat pump friendly tariff that supports time of use. It's not a huge step to link those three into a single product. You've got everything you need. They've also got a digital platform in Kraken that can be upgraded very quickly. And legacy systems are a huge barrier to this. Which I think is implicit in your question, Jon, which is why we've seen, say, E-on adopting Kraken, because they know they need to be fleeter afoot and need to be able to try stuff, be more experimental, be less cautious.

We'll see a lot of pilots at arm's length, particularly with AI. We'll see that. Another thing we'll see is the growth, our app-based banks, because it makes it a lot easier to integrate AI within the customer service experience and get a human in the loop if you're dealing through an app with a dialogue-based format rather than a phone call. So, all the different bits are there. The challenge is, can you join them all up into a single holistic proposition? That's simple and easy. My phrase is it should be simple on the outside and complex on the inside. That's what this will be.


[00:21:31.710] - Jon Slowe

So, I'm wondering now if our listeners who are working with incumbent energy retailers are starting to pack up their things and get ready to go home, which I think that would be a bit much.


[00:21:48.820] - Sandra Trittin

No. But I think it's just a different level of freedom, right, probably to just quickly build up on that. I think if you already have a legacy and then you have a brand, you have investors probably behind you, right? You always need to consider all your stakeholders that you already have. Whereas as a startup, you just start on a greenfield, right? You have no one you have to imagine, or besides the customer. And so, you can really directly push your product into that direction. And I think this is the major difference also in worth of timing and in worth of, let's say, the extent to how you can change from day one to the other.


[00:22:30.020] - Jon Slowe

Jennifer, how quickly can this happen? The word of the paper you and Nigel put together is The Dawn of a Customer-Centric Transition. Dawn suggests sun rising in the sky relatively quickly. How optimistic are you that these different elements of customer engagement, empowerment, use of data and AI, risk management, finance, and digitalisation to provide these services? How quickly can the energy sector, incumbent on new entrants, really embrace and drive this forward?


[00:23:09.130] - Jennifer Arran

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a really difficult question to answer and there's lots of different reasons why we would see this go faster or slower in certain markets. I think I think everything is ready now, which is why we said dawn, for it to go quite quickly if they engage in the right way. And what we're seeing is that over the last ten years, perhaps, we've seen retailers try and go after this prize, try, and create energy services solutions, but they're trying to do it all themselves. So, we've got kind of the big incumbent retailers in the UK. They want to have their own insulation force, they want to sell their own badged heat pump, they want to build every bit of the smart thermostat themselves. And actually, it's that realisation that there's others in the market who are able to do that better than them, more nimbly than them, and it's about creating those right relationships. So, they've got the customer right now and they need to really think about who and how they partner to get the right solution. If they do that, this could be quite quick, it could be quite rapid, because the skills and the expertise are there there's nothing really preventing this. We've seen AI last year; AI wasn't on anyone's radar. This year we're all using ChatGPT, every it's. It can happen really quickly when the kind of technology is right, and the customer offer is there, and it helps people.


[00:24:30.010] - Jon Slowe

Sandra, what do you think about Jennifer's point about know, I guess build it yourself, partner, collaborate?


[00:24:38.250] - Sandra Trittin

To be honest, I think it's crucial. Right, so we know that all the challenge that we are facing at the moment to manage that industry turnaround, we are not able to do like one by one, we can only do it together. That's my working hypothesis. So, I think partnerships are then crucial, especially also working together with the incumbents. It will make their life much easier because they can build up on technology that has been already developed, but it can be also giving quite a lot of advantage to smaller players working together or players, just to give you several examples. Right, there was now Tardo, which acquired Avatar, which is not a partnership, but an acquisition. Right. But it helps quite a lot in making that step into the energy field, for example. And there are several other examples that we can see coming from the flexibility part. I think you see also that many of the flexibility platforms got either acquired by big incumbents and then the few left ones, they work quite a lot together with different players, but also between each other sometimes. And, yeah, you can only gain from it, right? It's sometimes a hassle.

I mean, partnerships, during nice times, the sun is shining, right? If there are issues coming up, you're close to a divorce, but that's normal, right? Like in every relationship, I think it's.


[00:26:12.400] - Jon Slowe

Crucial, yeah, I guess comes back to marshalling those skills, bringing those skills together, whether they're in one company, whether they're across different companies. But I think it would be quite rare for them to all be all sit within one organisation.


[00:26:33.690] - Sandra Trittin

But it's also the limitations at the moment with the workforce, right. If you try to hire software designers, for example, to build up like a digital platform for any kind of business in the energy space, this is much more difficult than it was ten years ago, and this is only one piece of it. It doesn't matter, right? We have that scarcity of workforce in almost every area, so I think there as well, partnerships can help to overcome these scarcity issues.


[00:27:05.190] - Jon Slowe

Well, let's bring up the talking new energy crystal ball now, and I'm going to set the dial to just three years’ time, so 2026. And Nigel and Jennifer, I'm going to ask you to rate out of ten where you see where you see the market today and where you think it will be in three years’ time on this journey that you've both described in this podcast. So, zero out of ten will be right at the very beginning on the starting line. Ten out of ten, we are in this customer-centric future. So where are we today and where will we be in three years’ time? Jennifer, do you want to go first?




[00:27:53.990] - Jennifer Arran

And Nigel, I mean, for me, we've been doing this for quite a while now and I would say we're probably still right at the beginning. So, I've been with LCP Delta for coming up 14 years and it feels like the dial hasn't shifted much in that time, sadly. I think the difference now is the capabilities that we're seeing in the market and the technologies. They're there and they're ready and it's more about the implementation phase, so I think that can go much more rapidly. So, I'd probably say we're like a three out of ten now. Maybe we're a third of the way there. We've done all the building that we need to do, we've got the technologies and actually we've primed customers because customers are starting to shift towards wanting. The energy crisis has actually been great from a customer perspective, if you want to sell them stuff, because suddenly they're really aware of what they're spending and they're using, and they want to save money and they want to be greener. So, I think all those things are kind of coming together now, which means I think the pace will increase. So probably in the next keeping in mind, it's taken maybe ten years to get to three out of ten. I think in the next three years, you might get to six or seven out of ten.


[00:29:00.880] - Jon Slowe

Reaches six or seven. Nigel, your scores.


[00:29:04.040] - Nigel Timperley

I think Jennifer's stolen a lot more thunder there. But I do see the pace picking up probably a bit more rapidly than that, simply because partly because I'm just an optimist by nature, but also this is how things grow. Right. So, we've had this long, slow taxing down the runway. Know, think of the S curve. We're now very much at a tipping point, in my belief. Sandra's mentioned the number of acquisitions in the space, which is a common sign before a market disrupts, because then once the innovators build, all the tech and then the acquirers put it all together and suddenly they've got scale and they can roll out faster. So, the energy crisis as well has been a gift from a transition point of view. Plus, policymakers are now doubling down, especially in the EU on green goals. So, all of these things are very supportive. The technology is actually ready. We have huge rollout issues, particularly in Germany with smart metering. But, yes, I agree with all of Jennifer's sentiments, except that I don't think it's aggressive enough. I'm looking at a seven or an eight in three years’ time.


[00:30:06.880] - Jon Slowe

Okay, and where would you put us today?


[00:30:09.010] - Nigel Timperley

Oh, two. We really are just getting off the end of the runway.




[00:30:13.180] - Jon Slowe

Okay, Jennifer and Nigel, thanks very much. For people listening that are intrigued to learn more about what you've been saying, you can download the white paper from the LCP Delta website. The Dawn of a Customer-Centric Transition. Sandra, what do you make of this? Know, you've been an entrepreneur right in the middle of it for a long time. You're now more on the outside but working with companies who are in the middle of it. Where do you sit on where we're at today and where we're going to get to or how quickly we're going to move forward?


[00:30:49.790] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah, so let's say there is no reason why we should not be on a seven within three years’ time. I think the market circumstances as described before having never been better than now with all the technology being there, the awareness of the customer, et cetera. So, we just have to do it, which sounds easier than the implementation and integration might be, but it's all struggles that we can overcome. And I think now it moves much more into the term of creating the right business models and still also educating the customers on what's going on and why some offers are looking like another or not. Technology is there, the customer is there. Now it's just about building the integration and the business model, even though it might not be. Just easy, but I think it's possible. There will be focus areas, right, where players will have to define if they either go through AI and data or they better go through financing models or through risk management opportunities or solutions. Right. So, it's a bit like to choose one of the areas to start off with, but there is none on which you will go wrong at the moment. So, I think we can only get better. Right, but how would you see it, John? What would be your view?


[00:32:16.350] - Jon Slowe

So, I can see bits of this happening, like Nigel mentioned, a partnership between Radobank and Net2Grid in the Netherlands. There's quite a lot of good examples you could see in most European markets of this. Then you've got a few standout examples of the companies I mentioned earlier, companies like Tibet, Octopus, Enpal. And I think what these companies have shown is when you get things right, things can move quite quickly and you do need a lot of backing, you need enough deep enough pockets to invest in this and to get momentum. And ultimately, I think it comes down to leadership. Leadership and vision, determination, and that entrepreneurial mindset. So, I'm quite optimistic because I can see lots of signs from different types of companies. I can see progress starting to be made. Like you said, I think the market's there, and I think people working for companies want to make a difference. The energy sector is now quite a cool place to work to tell your friends, I work in the energy sector and people really want to make a difference. Customers want to do the right thing. Generally, the ingredients are there, so it just needs that push the leadership vision, deep pockets, determination, and I can see enough of that starting to come through, I think so. I don't know. Am I being too optimistic, Sandra?


[00:34:01.960] - Sandra Trittin

No, I think it was a great summary.


[00:34:04.180] - Jon Slowe

Well, let's see where we go in the next years and hope everyone listening. Whatever role you're playing, keep that determination, keep that vision. We'll only succeed in the energy transition if customers play an integral part in it. So, thanks for listening. Yeah, let's make it happen.


[00:34:22.610] - Sandra Trittin

Let's make it happen.


[00:34:23.970] - Jon Slowe

Hope you've got some inspiration and ideas from the podcast from the whitepaper. If you have a read of it and look forward to welcoming you back next week. Goodbye.


[00:34:34.750] - Sandra Trittin

See you soon. Thanks for tuning in. We are excited to bring you captivating conversations from the leading edge of Europe's energy transition. If you've got suggestions for topics or guests for future episodes, please let us know.


[00:34:48.010] - Jon Slowe

And if you're enjoying the podcast, then please do rate it and share it with colleagues. For show notes, transcripts and more, please visit

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