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Podcast S13E03

In conversation with Tom Thorp, CEO of Horizon Energy Infrastructure

Tom Thorp

The energy transition will involve millions of assets in people’s homes: batteries, solar panels, electric vehicles, electric vehicle chargers and more. And while some people may be able to dip their hand in their pocket to finance this, many people won’t. So connecting the world of finance to distributed energy assets will be a key part of the transition. In this episode, Jon Slowe is joined by Tom Thorp, CEO at Horizon Energy Infrastructure.

Episode transcript

[00:00:23.470] - Jon

Hello, and welcome to the episode. Today, we're looking again at the role of finance in the energy transition. The energy transition will involve millions of assets in people's homes, batteries, solar panels, electric vehicles, electric vehicle chargers, and more. And while some people may be able to dip their hand in their pocket to finance this, many people won't. So connecting the world of finance to distributed energy assets will be a key part of the transition. And I'm delighted today to be joined by a guest who does exactly that, Tom Thorpe from Horizon Energy Infrastructure. Hello, Tom.

[00:01:04.930] - Tom

Jon, hello. Very nice to be with you today.

[00:01:07.530] - Jon

Thanks for joining. So, Tom, is there anything you'd add to that challenge problem statement need that I set out at the beginning. And how would you add a bit more colour to what Horizon Energy Infrastructure does in connecting finance and distributed energy?

[00:01:26.530] - Tom

Of course, let me start with a little bit about who we are at Horizon, and then we can sort of go on to your specific question there. So who are we? We are a financier, historically of smart gas and electricity meters here in the UK. We've been doing that for over twelve years now, initially focused on the non-domestic sector, and then with the rollout of smart meters to homes, we started doing that in 2017. So we've now got to the point where we're about 900,000 smart meters across the UK. I've always had an aim of making sure that there's a lot of value add that comes from a smart meter. How do we help homeowners businesses to really interpret their energy usage data to improve the energy efficiency within the home and ultimately what they do? So I, for one myself, have been living and breathing this dream of EV, solar ,battery and an air source heat pump over the last couple of years. And I must say, what I've enjoyed about it is there's a wealth of technology out there. But the biggest challenge I think I have found is the understanding of how to optimize that technology.

[00:02:39.970] - Jon

Are you still living that challenge or have you overcome that challenge?

[00:02:43.810] - Tom

No, it would be fair to say I'm still living that challenge. My air source heat pump was only installed about four months ago now, so I've been living through sort of one winter, and so I've not had a full twelve month cycle yet to really work out how to optimize it. As a financier, of course, what we want to do is make sure that we're always financing robust assets that are in the right sort of risk profile to make sure that we can generate our return, but equally deploy large volumes of these assets and equipment moving forward. So this year, we have financed our first air source heat pumps for third party individuals under the Renewable Heat Incentive so that's given us a lot of learning. We are soon to be financing some heat pumps with a social landlord, really understanding how it works within that sector as well. And then when it comes to EV charging infrastructure, sort of the charge posts that are installed in people's homes within commercial premises, depots, wherever it may be, we have a strong desire to support that rollout as best we can, and it's therefore just trying to find the right sort of funding and I suppose revenue mechanisms, that means we can generate the return that are required on our assets, but they're ultimately providing the right level of service to the end customer.

[00:04:05.940] - Tom

And I think some of those pieces of the puzzle are not yet fully defined. How do you provide the right level of infrastructure? What volume is that? What number of charge points do you need ultimately, to make sure that a delivery company can continue to provide all the services that they provide today through petrol and diesel vehicles, but having an electrified van fleet, those are some of the challenges that we're encountering, but I think there is definitely a way through it.

[00:04:36.190] - Jon

Do you have two customers then effectively, you've got the people providing the finance who want the return and then you've got the social housing, the homeowner, the fleet manager who want their assets, but not only want the asset, wants it working really well and getting the maximum value from it. Is that the right way to think about it?

[00:04:56.700] - Tom

Yes, exactly. So in terms of the finance side of things, we have a very supportive shareholder called Arcus Infrastructure Partners, and they're a European based infrastructure investor focused on transportation, energy and digital. And so, of course, all of the things that we're talking about here, the sort of the decarbonisation of heat and transport really fits very neatly into their desire to be deploying capital into this space. So we provide a lot of the projects that we want to be putting in. We evaluate those with Arcus and we ultimately decide, does it have the right sort of risk and reward profile and counterparties to support that aspect. On the other end of it, it is then making sure that, yes, an end user is satisfied with what they have, the charge points themselves. What length of time will they need to be in there before there are bits that need to be replaced or refurbished? How can we make sure that the whole life cycle works for the end user? And in the case of a social housing provider, of course they will have multiple properties with tenants in them, and it's therefore ensuring that we tick the right boxes.

[00:06:11.150] - Tom

When it comes to what does the tenant need with respect to heating, if we're talking about an air source heat pump and also supporting the social landlord in their wider rollout of infrastructure upgrades, whether that's fabric, whether that's heating or other aspects to their programs.

[00:06:28.170] - Jon

So some people might think an infrastructure company doesn't - once the assets there in the home, at the Fleet Depot, whatever. As long as you're getting those regular payments for the asset, you don't really care what it's doing, how well it's working. But it sounds like you are going one step further in that you have a real interest that it's working as well as it can. It's optimized in exactly the right way, the customers getting the most value out of it.

[00:06:57.630] - Tom

Exactly, exactly. And I to give an example of what we've been doing in our past around smart metering. We've always wanted to do more than just provide the smart meter. We want to make sure that we're providing it in the right sort of way. And therefore the energy supplier who ultimately rents that meter from us on behalf of their end consumer is actually benefiting from that as well. What technology is out there, whether it's energy management software or otherwise, to ensure that the data that comes out of a smart meter can be interpreted and the homeowner or the business owner can then change some of their habits, we want to be doing the same. When it comes to air source heat pumps, EV infrastructure and solar and battery, how do you make sure that we're actually getting the best out of it or optimizing the technology that's on the wall and in time, of course, there'll be the portfolio effect where if we had a large number of these units deployed, how do we share the learnings across the country or within certain geographies or whatever else it may be? We don't plan to do all of these things ourselves because we're a relatively small team at the moment of about 25 people.

[00:08:08.130] - Tom

But how we've successfully grown over the last five years is by partnering with the people that do have that knowledge, but not necessarily the access to the finance or access to the customer base. They bring a certain sort of piece of software or technology into play. So we act as the glue that brings a lot of these things together.

[00:08:28.110] - Jon

So you could be working for a social housing provider, for example, financing heat pumps, financing PV on the roofs, maybe batteries as well. And you could be helping that social power provider to optimize when the battery is charging, when the heat pump’s running, as you say, not necessarily yourself, but you want to provide a funded solution that includes the equipment, the service, the optimization, that whole package.

[00:08:56.430] - Tom

Exactly. I think ultimately it's making sure that from day one of the discussions with a social housing provider that the right control systems are in place. A social housing provider will have contracts already with the facilities management organizations, those people that can go in and install that equipment. But actually, does that company understand how to optimize that equipment? What is it that they need to have in the background to identify whether they've got to send an engineer out to fix something on a broken air source heat pump, or how do you optimize it? Depending on the season, winter, spring, summer, autumn type thing, how do you ultimately do that? And it's making sure that that control mechanism is built in from the start, rather than something that's retrofitted later on.

[00:09:44.740] - Jon

And this may be getting a bit nitty gritty, but financing the asset your financer needs regular repayments or regular income stream for the asset. For the optimization and those other services you described, do you think you will bundle that or are you bundling that into the asset itself, or is that an add on service or is it all neatly wrapped up and it's one payment from the customer for all of those services that you described?

[00:10:15.370] - Tom

Yeah, it's potentially a little bit too early to say because we're still exploring a number of different pilots. But I have an ambition of wrapping it all up in one payment so that it's nice and simple to the customer so that they can just see the transparency behind it a little bit. In the same way that on the smart metering side, there's just a monthly rental payment that we receive and that bundles all of the services in that are provided alongside the hardware. We would like to do the same on air source heat pumps for social housing providers, obviously, because of the nascent nature to air source heat pumps, I believe there's about 50 – 55,000 heat pumps installed in the UK to date, and of course those have been installed over many years. The government has a target of installing north of 600,000 meters a year, so to be able to get from A to B, there's a big transition required. So I think we will definitely learn lessons about what is the best way to optimize these things. But ultimately, if we can make it simple for the end consumer and we can make it straightforward for the customer who is paying the invoice, ultimately, I think that will make it just a lot simpler to hit all the targets that everyone is trying to achieve.

[00:11:34.870] - Tom

But of course, time will tell.

[00:11:37.210] - Jon

So flipping to the financing side for a moment, if I think of energy infrastructure and infrastructure funds, probably the first thing that comes to mind is things like transformers, big infrastructure that can be financed over a 20, 30, 40 year period. Then you've got things like smart meters, which are newer to the world of infrastructure finance, but now not new. Now well understood. So I imagine your finance customers are comfortable with smart metering, for example. How comfortable are they? You said there's a lot to learn still. So where are we on that learning curve before we can unlock infrastructure type finance that would flow into heat pumps, solar, batteries, these types of assets?

[00:12:34.810] - Tom

Yeah, it would be fair to say we're still relatively early on that journey, but I think the journey and the path to sort of larger scale rollout of these technologies is better understood. We've been doing quite a lot of due diligence ourselves on the technical robustness of this technology, which is clearly a very important thing from a financing perspective. Understanding the warranties that one gets on technology, the failure rates, what are the things that can ultimately go wrong? And of course, once you understand that and you're able to look at a bit of a track record to some of this technology, that really helps unlock some of the hurdles to sort of mainstream finance. I think the way we approach it through our investor is that they have capital or equity finance available to be able to start some of this technology deployment, to be able to get to those proof points.

[00:13:34.840] - Jon

What to accepting a bit more risk, a bit more uncertainty?

[00:13:38.960] - Tom


[00:13:41.410] - Jon

That was a bit more expensive then, of course.

[00:13:44.560] - Tom

Yes, it is a little bit more expensive. But of course, the proviso is that we always want it to get into more mainstream finance and bring some debt funders alongside at the point when all of those proof points have been answered. So we sit here going right out of ten questions, seven of them can probably be answered today to therefore, to be able to unlock some of the equity finance. Once you get to nine out of ten or ten out of ten question answered, that's when the debt funders will come on board. But unless you provide that equity funding, you often can't get the answers to be able to get to ten out of ten. So we're willing to take an element of sort of controlled risk in all of this to make sure that we can get to some of those proof points. And that's what's always been very encouraging about our shareholder Arcus, is the desire to support us in that journey.

[00:14:35.120] - Jon

Okay, so I was going to ask you how much? Well, for your shareholder and also for the wider set of infrastructure funders, how much are they really keen to get involved in things like heat pumps, EV chargers at Fleet Depots and the newer things. Is it - Yeah, we really want to do this. Please help us understand it. Or is it more having to drag people along to show them the opportunity?

[00:15:05.890] - Tom

No, it's definitely the former. People really want to get involved. But of course, there are complexities to it. And you highlighted transformers earlier. Those are big pieces of kit where you can deploy large amounts of capital in one go. When you've got multiple units that are, let's say, five to £15,000, that's sort of harder for them to deploy the same amount of capital because you've got to have multiple units versus one. But I think what we've been able to demonstrate with them and prove to them on the smart meter roll out is that there are lots of very little assets where the capital cost that's ultimately financed, including the installation, is far smaller than you would be financing on a heat pump or a charge point or whatever it may be. The difference is the regulatory environment that a smart meter sits in. It's a quasi regulated industry because of, obviously all of the license obligations on the energy suppliers. The government backed program when it comes to heat pumps, EV charging infrastructure. There's a lot of government support, but it's in less of a framework than say smart meters are. So it's a journey. As I say, we've got to continue to knock down some of these barriers and find a way of making sure that everyone gets comfortable with the risk profile, the length of life, because again, transformer lasts for a long time.

[00:16:31.840] - Tom

Smart meters, 15 years plus - a heat pump, a lot of it should last for a good period of time, but it's still relatively new in the sense of what is the length of the life, what are the things that need to be maintained? And therefore, as long as you've got a good maintenance package that sits alongside, you can be comfortable that you've got a very robust technology asset that can be financed for the longer term.

[00:16:56.810] - Jon

And I can imagine some of our listeners in the heat pump industry will be maybe not shouting at their device, but saying, yeah, heat pumps are robust, they are mature. But that may well be the case. And I think it's the case. But it's a data points and it's a confidence issue, isn't it?

[00:17:14.710] - Tom

Exactly. It is about confidence because, as you say, heat pumps have been around for many years. It's just they've not necessarily being deployed in the volumes that we're looking to achieve here in the UK. In the UK. Exactly. And it's therefore making sure that we break down those barriers. We use examples from the Scandinavian markets, for example, to go, this is how heating infrastructure has worked, whether it's district heating all the way through to individual heat pump solution. How do you take that data and apply it into the UK? So I don't think it's impossible. It's just ultimately, the more that we can demonstrate through using equity finance to be able to do it, the greater the debt funders will be able to get on board and it becomes mainstream. And coupled with sort of government incentives that sit there, that sort of just gives people confidence to really spend the time and ultimately the money exploring and ultimately deploying capital into the space.

[00:18:17.420] - Jon

Yeah. Okay. So the capital providers can see the opportunity at the macro scale. They know this is going to be a big opportunity. But as you say, there's a time, there's a learning curve, a building of confidence. Tom, what about the customer security? So you talk about smart meters. I guess the smart meter will always be in the property, pretty much social housing - those customers are going to be there for a long time we've talked in Delta-EE a bit about the private rented sector, so some of us would probably have good credit records, but there are parts of the market that won't. So I can imagine you're starting in parts of the market like social housing for a reason, because that's a secure customer. Do you think this could be rolled out to the whole market, these type of solutions, or do you think they're really only where you've got a very high level of confidence in the customer or the asset will be there for 2030 years?.

[00:19:22.470] - Tom

No I mean, I think ultimately this could be rolled out across everyone in the UK. It's just a question of time and it's a question of knowledge as well, really understanding what are the characteristics to some of the housing users that are different to social housing? As you say, social landlords have large portfolios of properties. They have a very good understanding of how to manage those. And ultimately they're responsible for making sure that heating, lighting, electrical provision, all those types of things are there. When it comes to the stand alone homeowner or potential rental market, it's different because, of course, a lot of the housing stock in the UK is different itself. It's been built over many years. It's got its own sort of foibles to it as to insulation today versus the way it was built in the past. And so unfortunately, one size doesn't fit all. But there are definitely pockets that we can start with, we can really prove and then move into some of the adjacencies to that to make sure that nobody is left out, because we all need to move to this decarbonised world. And a heat pump should, in the main, work for many, many different properties.

[00:20:45.230] - Tom

Some of them need to potentially be high temperature heat pumps, so they're easier to install, plug and play, and you don't need to replace hot water tanks and radiators because that just creates a lot more complexity, time and of course cost.

[00:20:58.510] - Jon

Or a hydrogen heat pump that provides that solution?

[00:21:02.340] - Tom

Yes, exactly. There's a whole host of different things out there. And what's been very pleasing to me is to see how the technology providers themselves, the manufacturers, have risen to this challenge. Of course, they have a vested interest because they want to be deploying more kit, but they realize that one size doesn't fit all. You've got to do things in a slightly different way, whether that's because of geography or housing stock reasons or whatever else it may be. So fundamentally, you've got to start somewhere. And as I mentioned, 50,000 plus heat pumps have been installed. How did you learn the lessons from those and really apply it moving forwards?

[00:21:38.270] - Jon

And in terms of the type of assets you focus on, so you've talked metering is where you started with these smaller assets, talked about heat pumps, talked about EV chargers, solar and battery. I think on your website you list microgrids. So if you had to put them in order of which you think you would deploy most of first, what order would you put them in?

[00:22:06.920] - Tom

Well, actually probably in the order that you just mentioned it so the metering side will continue for the next five plus years based on the rollout program that's happening. So that's the bread and butter to the business and that will continue for at least five years plus. The heat pump is as I mentioned earlier, we have deployed capital into the heat pump space air source heat pumps last year and continued to do so this year all the way through to the end of March when the Renewable Heat Incentive changes to a boiler scrappage scheme. We're now evaluating how we can work from the 1 April onwards. Social Housing We're in very active conversations there about how we support social housing providers in the heat pump space. So heat pumps is definitely front and center.  EV - we're looking at working with a number of fleet operators. How could we support them in making sure that their depots are optimized, whether that's grid or reinforcement works required as well? And then where are their drivers and where are the vans overnight? Do we need to install home based charging infrastructure as well? That is there, but it's probably a fast follower to heat. Networks we would love to get involved with and beginning to explore that as well.

[00:23:27.590] - Tom

And solar and battery, of course, solar has been around for a long time. I think putting batteries on feels like a relatively simple solution, but again, it's trying to identify the right sort of customers to work with. And of course social landlords themselves are exploring this. So can we provide sort of heat, solar and battery to some of the social landlords to then be able to sort of progress that as well? So it's probably in the order that you talked about and I've just highlighted as well.

[00:23:53.760] - Jon

Yeah. Okay. I'd like to move on to speed and looking forward and how fast can this go? Because sometimes I worry that not with you and me, but in general, we're jogging in the energy transition where we need to be sprinting to hit our targets. But you illustrated really nicely the learning that's needed to get the finance sector comfortable with these new types of, well, not new assets, but financing for them. New types of assets. So how fast can this scale, how fast can you go from the learning stage, the investigating to, I don't know, the level that you're doing with smart meters where you're rolling them out in the hundreds of thousands?

[00:24:44.030] - Tom

Yeah. I think realistically it is going to be a number of years to be able to get to that same sort of scale. A lot of it will be to do with the government framework that sits around it, making sure that there is stability in that government framework and not necessarily too much change. So, of course, with the boiler scrappage scheme coming in from the 1 April that's applicable to domestic properties, I think that will provide a level of stability there. From the social housing perspective. There's a social decarbonization fund, social housing decarbonization fund that again is an established fund that is looking to develop and grow. That's the government related money. It's the private finance sector that needs to come on board and sit alongside that and really understand how they work in unison. It's not one or the other, it's ultimately working in unison. So I see 2022 as a really pivotal year because air source heat pumps, the decarbonisation agenda given Cop 26, it's now being talked about a lot more, people are understanding the need. And as we've all encountered with changes in wholesale gas pricing and therefore what that's done to the price cap and ultimately the cost of energy to everyone, that I think will again trigger a move to how do we reduce our energy usage or how do we better use energy such that we're not wasting it too much and it's costing us too much?

[00:26:15.040] - Tom

There's a number of different factors that are really contributing to it, but it's still going to be about proof. It's still got to be about making sure that it's robust for everyone that's using it, and that will take time. So it's going to be at least a year or two before we can be getting to the right sort of scale to then cookie cutter these things and make sure it's just being deployed in larger volumes.

[00:26:36.990] - Jon

And what worries you the most, maybe that's a bit of a negative way to say it, but what are the biggest challenges for you, do you think in terms of going at the speed you think you can go at or scaling this in the way you can scale it?

[00:26:52.430] - Tom

It's often making sure that you've got the right counterparties around the table to be able to actually take the project and move it forwards. I think there's a lot of great knowledge out there and some really good parties to work with, but it's sort of almost hitting everyone at the right sort of time. So it's setting the agenda and really understanding how that fits into, I suppose, the program of work. So if we use a social housing provider as an example, they of course, will have long term programs of works that's agreed about upgrading the fabric of particular properties. How do you therefore slot some of these technology upgrade projects into that as well? Is it something that they can do relatively easily, or actually because they've agreed the budget, the time frames, the work patterns for a twelve month period, you've got to then wait for the next cycle. And I think these are some of the things that we need to really get right. So it's often getting the right people round the table and going now is the right time the money is there, the technology is there, the installers there, the end consumer is there.

[00:28:02.940] - Tom

And the control mechanism that sits over the top is there. Now is the right time to do it. And actually, with heat and air source heat pumps, a lot of this was beginning to get in place sort of in 2020. But then, of course, Covid hit and of course, installers couldn't go into people's homes to be able to install this piece of equipment. So things like that then put it back a period of time. So there's a number of sort internal and external factors. But the thing that I suppose I think about most is how do you get the right counterparties together?

[00:28:37.520] - Jon

And in electrifying a fleet depot, for example, that might be the facilities manager, the finance manager. It's all those different decision makers that need to tick it off, that need to be part of it.

[00:28:52.130] - Tom

Exactly. And then in that scenario, often the longest lead time can be if there needs to be some grid reinforcement works done to make sure that the charging infrastructure can operate at an optimum, you've got to then go to the DNO to make sure that actually you can do it. What's the cost of that? What's the time frame involved? So it really depends on what you're trying to do. But, yeah, there are often some external factors that are outside your control that you just need to try and get on as quickly as possible.

[00:29:23.330] - Jon

Yeah. I think it's interesting what you didn't mention there was getting the financers comfortable with the concept that's something with time you think is eminently doable.

[00:29:34.650] - Tom

Yes, exactly. Because there's a great desire to be financing the green economy, as we've seen with the multitude of different sort of government related organizations that they're starting with the green investment bank many years ago, so that there is a strong desire to be deploying it. But, of course, there needs to be the right level of protections and ultimately due diligence done. And that does take time because it does need evidence and it just needs that support of sort of proof points. At the end of the day, we got there in metering and continue to as meter technology evolves. And I've got every confidence we can achieve exactly the same as we move into the heat pumps and the EV charging infrastructure side of things.

[00:30:19.950] - Jon

Well, on that theme, Tom, now is the time when we'll bring up the talking new energy crystal ball, and I was debating a bit where to set the dial on one hand. So I'm going to set it for 2030, end of the decade. I thought about 2025, because that might be a bit I don't know if that's harder to predict, but sometimes the long term is easier than the short term. But let's go for 2030. And if you feel like adding a step on that way to 2030, feel free to add it but what would you like Horizon Energy Infrastructure to be doing or to have achieved by 2030 and possibly by 2025, of course?

[00:30:59.590] - Tom

Well, let's start with 2025, because that is the target for significant deployment of smart meters in the UK. And what that ultimately means for us is that (a) we will have a large volume of meters deployed across a multitude of different energy suppliers. But importantly, it will be the data that comes out of those to help people on their energy efficiency journey. So that's what I have as an ambition in the next three to four years is making sure that that data can be interpreted, played back to people in a simple way, and then that will help with individual homeowners sort of investment decisions about what do they deploy in their homes. And then by 2030, clearly, we will have the vast majority of the UK on smart meters. We will have deployed good volumes of air source heat pumps. The electrification of vehicles will be very firmly in everyone's minds, of course, gas boilers themselves. The likelihood is that, of course, the time frames for no longer being able to install new gas boilers and then not being able to install or retrofit gas boilers will also be evolving very, very fast. And I think the technology will just be in everyone's minds.

[00:32:17.800] - Tom

They'll be thinking about an air source heat pump as a normal piece of equipment in the home, rather than a scary thing that people just don't understand. So I think the knowledge base across the population will be better understood as to how normal these things are. Range anxiety, driving a car will just be normal because the public infrastructure network will be bigger and bigger as we progress through X number of years as well. And so it just becomes normal having an EV, having an air source heat pump. Of course, a large percentage of the population won't necessarily have it at that stage, but it will just be more normal to have them.

[00:32:57.780] - Jon

And does that mean from the financers side, by 2030, they will see this as a very financeable asset class in the same way they view the transformers that we talked about earlier?

[00:33:11.370] - Tom

Exactly. There will always be different characteristics to it, given the large number of units that are required to be financed. But yes, in sort of eight, nine years time, the financing solutions will be there to make sure that ultimately if somebody wants to install an air source heat pump, they'll be able to do so. And there'll be multiple competitive products out there that will enable people to do it. The framework to make sure that, for example, solar and battery in a home because of the mortgage component to it will be just normal as well. What does all of that mean, ultimately I think, is that the knowledge base will be there, the finances will be there to support, and we will be well on our way to a good volume of all of these pieces of equipment being installed.

[00:34:04.530] - Jon

Well, Tom it has been a fascinating discussion and for me, it illustrates how multifaceted and fascinating the energy transition is. It needs finance, it needs technology. It needs creative, compelling customer propositions. It needs great marketing. It brings so many disciplines together. But that finance discipline, I think, will be so important because only so many people will be able to dip their hands in their own pockets and we'll need that unlock the volumes of infrastructure financing to get to where we need to get to.

[00:34:41.310] - Tom

I wholeheartedly agree. I think it is a fascinating space and everyone has a role to play in making sure that we ultimately get there. There are risks that need to be taken, but they can be managed. And then, as I sort of talked about, the knowledge base needs to really improve just to make sure it becomes more normal to have it moving away from gas and oil fired boilers should become just a comfortable activity for people to do rather than be worried about it. So no, I think it's going to be a very exciting time.

[00:35:10.060] - Jon

Yeah. Well, thanks very much for your time Tom. Thank you, as always, to everyone listening. Hope you enjoyed the episode and another window into the world of finance and the energy transition and look forward to welcoming you back next week. Thanks and goodbye.

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